MOMOC - mine/build/sabotage/survive

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AllDarnDavey
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Re: MOMOC - mine/build/sabotage/survive

Post by AllDarnDavey » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:56 am

Such a simple tile swap mechanic, and yet so brilliant and well executed. I love the emergent gameplay as there is no "one way" to get past any challenge. I kinda wish that I could stand on top of the ladders like you can usually, but that might make ladders to over-powered.

The gameplay loop has a very nice human centered design (Dan Norman would be proud). Wood for building wood ladders and wooden blocks, stone for stone blocks, just like you'd expect, and pretty much everything made of wood or rock can be harvested. The icons for each are also super obvious. The only exception might be the fuse, it's a little less inherently obvious, and the not needing resources for them feels good gameplay-wise, but kinda messes with established expectations. Having wooden object be flammable would be more elegant, but maybe a little too hard to pull off currently in NESmaker.

Overall though, amazing. Not only have you made a nice NES game, you've made one that feels really fresh and unique.
Last edited by AllDarnDavey on Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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justadude
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Re: MOMOC - mine/build/sabotage/survive

Post by justadude » Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:04 am

I LOVE IT!!!
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gimme me chocolate milk
Goaterby
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Re: MOMOC - mine/build/sabotage/survive

Post by Goaterby » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:10 pm

BentPawGames wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 3:43 am
This is cool!
Thank you BentPawGames! Glad you like it.
AllDarnDavey wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:56 am
Such a simple tile swap mechanic, and yet so brilliant and well executed. I love the emergent gameplay as there is no "one way" to get past any challenge. I kinda wish that I could stand on top of the ladders like you can usually, but that might make ladders to over-powered.

The gameplay loop has a very nice human centered design (Dan Norman would be proud). Wood for building wood ladders and wooden blocks, stone for stone blocks, just like you'd expect, and pretty much everything made of wood or rock can be harvested. The icons for each are also super obvious. The only exception might be the fuse, it's a little less inherently obvious, and the not needing resources for them feels good gameplay-wise, but kinda messes with established expectations. Having wooden object be flammable would be more elegant, but maybe a little too hard to pull off currently in NESmaker.

Overall though, amazing. Not only have you made a nice NES game, you've made one that feels really fresh and unique.
Thank you so much AllDarnDavey! High praise indeed. I love and greatly appreciate all the feedback-- I will add to it and explain some of that:

The ladder mechanics in place are mostly there to make them precarious. While it is not the best idea to make something scary to use purely from a mechanical standpoint (as it can obviously lead to frustration if someone messes up on them), I hoped to use them to modulate tension a tiny bit, and to separate them from other solids: when you are reaching a ladder that is hanging off of an edge, you have to deliberately 'grasp' it by pressing up or down as you take a step off. If you are running across a floor that has a ladder in it, you have to jump it to avoid it. This might become more difficult to juggle if you are under other stresses (i.e. cannon / rifleman firing at your back, or an assassin sprinting towards you), so in small way, it could be slightly more exciting or suspenseful to keep in mind that a ladder is not the equivalent of a floor, and must be handled carefully. It might not be the best tweak (especially given how snappy the physics are set up), but I think, based upon how I see people playing the game at present, that it might have been the right decision. If I end up making more levels / finish a larger game with this, level design and puzzles may dictate a different approach.

In regards to human-centric design, I definitely focused on making it as self-explanatory as I could, given the graphical/mechanical constraints, but it didn't really come together until the fuse mechanic focused the scope of the game. I do sorta regret having to take out background block tile collisions, as in early builds everything except dirt background was harvestable, and you had to build background tiles to support solid floor tiles, or have them cantilevered from the side. Whether muddling or intuitive, it certainly changed things a lot. The only thing stopping this from being expanded was a lack of a good 'tile drop' loop that actually made tiles fall if they were not supported. I understood what to do and how, but I didn't have the time to do it, especially after adding the fuse mechanic, which ate another tile collision type, and a lot of time and code space. The fuse mechanic shifted the focus of the game and condensed it. No longer was it about long-form building of stable structures to get over things / avoid enemies, now it was a series of puzzle rooms that went much quicker. It was definitely easier to design for once everything was in its own little room to explore, with only a couple of clear goals (i.e. arrow pointing to an exit, or a keg).

Yeah the fuse icon was difficult. Representing what a fuse is in an 8x8px tile is a challenge for me. I would have easily been able to do it in a 16x16px space, but I had so many problems getting the HUD to work and update normally at all (hence the odd: 'killed by enemy, return with nothin in inventory, killed by falling, get a stone and a wood' quirk), so I had to stick with the simple setup in the current build. Maybe with time and help I can get the HUD working with larger icons in the future.

Fuse originally cost 1 wood to build, but this really limited what I could do on screen, and was forcing me to put lots of wood blocks / trees where I didn't want to. This being said, it also limited where / how much fuse the player could build, which is great from a level design perspective, bad from the player freedom perspective; It meshed perfectly with the rest of the game mechanics (i.e. need stone for stone, wood for wood, got to go get it etc.), but the tedious reality of carrying wood around to make what is sometimes a really long fuse in addition to the stuff you had already built just led me to make it free.

Wooden objects would actually be really easy to make flammable in the current build! Got plenty of space for fire graphics too. The fuse behavior I have is modular enough that I could just say 'find wooden tiles', and a fire object would burn them up eventually if they were connected, or set fuses off if they touched them. It is a really interesting suggestion to consider.

justadude wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:04 am
I LOVE IT!!!
I am very glad, justadude! It means a lot to hear that.
STARMUSH (early 90s RTS on otherworldly drugs) / MOMOC (fantasy Meiji-era Japanese combat engineering)
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justadude
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Re: MOMOC - mine/build/sabotage/survive

Post by justadude » Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:33 pm

I WILL PAY MONEY FOR THE BOX AND CART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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gimme me chocolate milk
Goaterby
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Re: MOMOC - mine/build/sabotage/survive

Post by Goaterby » Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:59 pm

justadude wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:33 pm
I WILL PAY MONEY FOR THE BOX AND CART!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will make sure to post here once it is done and flashed!

Working on a couple of other long-term games on other platforms at the moment, so it will likely be a couple months before serious progress is made making a full-length version of Momoc. I will leave a list of potential additions and changes here in the meantime, so feel free to add suggestions and criticisms:

-optimizations across the board
-distinct worlds / biomes (forest, desert, mountain, underworld/cave or something etc. Got a lot of graphic space left at present)
-maybe one or two new enemy types (optimization dependent, really tight fit at the mo, but I think it's doable)
-branching path system, or several distinct paths from a central hub (custom multiwarps stored in NPC text space could work without textbox drawing to my knowledge)
-a proper title screen
-better / more consistent death animation
-bounding on block destruction so that cannons can't blow up the HUD anymore, and so that you can't mine it, as silly and endearing as I find this to be.
-fix/exception for the ladder bug whereby you are always snapped to a ladder when mining, even on the ground.
Last edited by Goaterby on Thu Mar 28, 2019 4:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
STARMUSH (early 90s RTS on otherworldly drugs) / MOMOC (fantasy Meiji-era Japanese combat engineering)
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Lother
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Re: MOMOC - mine/build/sabotage/survive

Post by Lother » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:31 am

The snipers AI is really impressive, how did you manage to make them shoot only when they can hit you ?
_____
The game I'm currently working on : FIGHT OF THE PHOENIX

One of the 2D graphical artist who worked on MonsterBoy and the Cursed Kingdom.
Goaterby
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Re: MOMOC - mine/build/sabotage/survive

Post by Goaterby » Wed Mar 20, 2019 1:01 am

Lother wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:31 am
The snipers AI is really impressive, how did you manage to make them shoot only when they can hit you ?
Thanks Lother!


It essentially works like this:

1. The sniper, every once in a while, checks its Y against the player Y.

2. If the player's Y is equal to (snapped to the nearest metatile), or less than their own (i.e. the player is level with or above them on screen), they should take aim and fire, regardless of line of sight.

3. If the player's Y is greater than theirs (i.e. the player is below them on screen), it subtracts the player's x position from their own, and takes the absolute value of the result.

4. This result is compared to a value in horizontal distance that, in combination with the Y check above, should prevent firing downward at most angles that are too steep / guaranteed misses.


The cannon unit also does this, though it uses a greater distance buffer for its downward angle, so as to not destroy its own platform!
STARMUSH (early 90s RTS on otherworldly drugs) / MOMOC (fantasy Meiji-era Japanese combat engineering)
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Chasersgaming
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Re: MOMOC - mine/build/sabotage/survive

Post by Chasersgaming » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:36 pm

Just played your game from the Byte off, i'm still actually playing it. :)

I am absolutely blown away by your game, a massive congratulations on your work here, it is something quite special, i would expect this to do well in the compo. Great stuff.
Goaterby
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Re: MOMOC - mine/build/sabotage/survive

Post by Goaterby » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:51 pm

Chasersgaming wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:36 pm
Just played your game from the Byte off, i'm still actually playing it. :)

I am absolutely blown away by your game, a massive congratulations on your work here, it is something quite special, i would expect this to do well in the compo. Great stuff.
Thanks for the kind words Chasersgaming! And good luck beating it! The last level is a doozy.

Hopefully the presence of a manual helped it. Without it, and with my rushed / sparse title screen and lack of direct tutorials, I am really glad some folks have still managed to play it and figure it out. This whole experience thus far has been an eye-opening series of mistakes on my part. Best way to learn!
STARMUSH (early 90s RTS on otherworldly drugs) / MOMOC (fantasy Meiji-era Japanese combat engineering)
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Chasersgaming
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Re: MOMOC - mine/build/sabotage/survive

Post by Chasersgaming » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:26 pm

I don't have a manual, i just figured it out myself, through chopping back and forth here on the forums. I have to say, this forum absolutely canes my bandwidth and makes my internet so slow, they should think about fixing that, wouldn't be a bad idea to scale down the images posted, sorry, ranting on your thread.:)
downloading from the website doesn't give you those sort of files, only the ROM, but i could just download everyones files from their threads but that would honestly take all day and i don't have time for that, there is a lot of games to play. :)

your game is an 'eye opener' and is a credit to you and the NESmaker brand.
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