DCPM Support

Have a thought on how NESmaker can be improved? We are a small team with limited means, but we'd love to hear your ideas!
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PotaJoe
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DCPM Support

Post by PotaJoe » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:32 pm

NESMaker NEEDS DCPM support for music!
How are you supposed to make good percussion with just noise?
I have a TON of songs that I made in FL studio and then ported to FamiTracker, all using DCPM for kicks and snares, with noise being used for Hi-Hat, and when I turn off the DCPM it just sounds empty.
Please add this :(
-PotaJoe
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stevenshepherd
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Re: DCPM Support

Post by stevenshepherd » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:15 pm

I don't have the complete answer, other than that others have asked and the answer is complicated. The samples can take up a lot of space, and so putting that space aside just in case someone wanted samples would be a waste for a lot of people who don't want to use the space in that way. Anyway, if you search the forum for DCPM I am sure you will find a more complete answer from Joe. But basically he has said that if one wanted to, it would require working with the code themselves.

The noise channel can do percussion. I know people use pulse to do some solid kick drums too (at least in LSDJ for gameboy. presumably the same can be said for the NES).
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PotaJoe
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Re: DCPM Support

Post by PotaJoe » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:08 pm

stevenshepherd wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:15 pm
I don't have the complete answer, other than that others have asked and the answer is complicated. The samples can take up a lot of space, and so putting that space aside just in case someone wanted samples would be a waste for a lot of people who don't want to use the space in that way. Anyway, if you search the forum for DCPM I am sure you will find a more complete answer from Joe. But basically he has said that if one wanted to, it would require working with the code themselves.

The noise channel can do percussion. I know people use pulse to do some solid kick drums too (at least in LSDJ for gameboy. presumably the same can be said for the NES).
OK, But they should at least make it an option, like maybye have a toggle that can be sort of like:

DCPM
>[ENABLED] (Less space)
[DISABLED] (More space)
-PotaJoe
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PotaJoe
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Re: DCPM Support

Post by PotaJoe » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:13 pm

stevenshepherd wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:15 pm
I don't have the complete answer, other than that others have asked and the answer is complicated. The samples can take up a lot of space, and so putting that space aside just in case someone wanted samples would be a waste for a lot of people who don't want to use the space in that way. Anyway, if you search the forum for DCPM I am sure you will find a more complete answer from Joe. But basically he has said that if one wanted to, it would require working with the code themselves.

The noise channel can do percussion. I know people use pulse to do some solid kick drums too (at least in LSDJ for gameboy. presumably the same can be said for the NES).
Also, I don't really want my hi-hat cutting off my kicks and snares.
-PotaJoe
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WolfMerrik
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Re: DCPM Support

Post by WolfMerrik » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:10 pm

PotaJoe wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:13 pm
Also, I don't really want my hi-hat cutting off my kicks and snares.
Definitely, a lot of compromise needs to be made when making music for the NES, even more so with NESMaker.
You can make kicks that use the Triangle, and then still use the triangle for basslines too when not using a kick drum.

I do agree, DPCM would be great, but it seems like there are SO many changes that would need to be made it just isn't possible (short of recoding an engine yourself). Hopefully, at the very least, the famitracker import/effects/etc might become less limited, which will make things much better for musicians. In the meantime, enjoy the challenge of the limitations! =P
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stevenshepherd
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Re: DCPM Support

Post by stevenshepherd » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:21 pm

Yea I have seen a similar strategy with the triangle channel. it works really well.

I have been a beta backer and followed this for a while and trust that Joe and the team know what they are doing. Based on their responses to the DCPM question, it is way more complicated than just having an on/off switch and if it was that easy they would include it.
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CutterCross
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Re: DCPM Support

Post by CutterCross » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:49 pm

The DPCM channel can corrupt input reads from the controller if a sample is played, as well as other bus conflicts. You'd have to write a custom routine for handling inputs. That's another reason why NESmaker won't support them natively.
The Tower of Turmoil: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=227
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WolfMerrik
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Re: DCPM Support

Post by WolfMerrik » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:10 am

CutterCross wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:49 pm
The DPCM channel can corrupt input reads from the controller if a sample is played, as well as other bus conflicts. You'd have to write a custom routine for handling inputs. That's another reason why NESmaker won't support them natively.
This is definitely another reason why NESMaker will not have this "out of the box".
It, of course, does not mean that someone won't develop a way to do this (who knows if they will share it).
Changing the overall sound engine is definitely possible, but no one has attempted it yet.

Because of all the things that could go wrong; it is smart they don't touch it with a ten-foot pole (unless drunk and it is referenced as theoretical)

That being said, I would love to have more than 9 frames in music, or some of the other missing FT features... can we talk about those for a while? =P
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CutterCross
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Re: DCPM Support

Post by CutterCross » Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:30 am

WolfMerrik wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:10 am
This is definitely another reason why NESMaker will not have this "out of the box".
It, of course, does not mean that someone won't develop a way to do this (who knows if they will share it).
Changing the overall sound engine is definitely possible, but no one has attempted it yet.

Because of all the things that could go wrong; it is smart they don't touch it with a ten-foot pole (unless drunk and it is referenced as theoretical)

That being said, I would love to have more than 9 frames in music, or some of the other missing FT features... can we talk about those for a while? =P
Honestly I don't have any problems with the extra limitations NESmaker and GGsound have. Any good Famitracker composer can cleverly work around those limitations. Really all stuff like channel volume control and effects are just convienences for the composer, you can find other ways to achieve the same results.

As for the 9 frames issue, I've recently heard that it only applies to using more than 9 DIFFERENT frames for each channel, and that you can reuse frames to make a song longer, but I haven't tested that yet so I don't know if it's true. But also keep in mind that the longer a song is, the more space the song takes up in the music bank. So it's still probably best to limit it to 9 frames per song for memory reasons if you're making a lot of songs.
The Tower of Turmoil: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=227
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PotaJoe
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Re: DCPM Support

Post by PotaJoe » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:00 am

OK, didn't expect this post to get this much attention.

I see where you are all coming from.

The way I make music for NESmaker at the moment is using FL studio as it is easier to make music in, then I export a .mid of it and import it into an older version of FamiTracker, then I add some instruments.

To be honest, it would take a while to have the noise and triangle change instruments during the song because of how it imports, I would suggest Famitracker adds an instrument change option but they have cut midi support in recent updates.

DCPM would be nice for sound effects at least anyway.
-PotaJoe
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